Activist Tactics Debate: Socialism in America

topic posted Fri, June 29, 2007 - 5:06 PM by  Malvado Supremo
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Steven Argue said, “Build the socialist movement to end imperialism, racism, environmental destruction, and capitalism!”

Malvado says, “Advocating socialism in the US is also self-defeating. Using that term is a guaranteed way to shoot your movement in the foot. You will never, and I mean never, be able to build a movement in the US using the term socialist or communist. The cold war saw to that. We've also never seen a model of socialism not ruled with an iron fist by dictator.”

Steven Argue responds, “Tell me where capitalism is successful in the world. Corrupt Russia? Death squad Colombia? Starving Haiti? Imperialist war mongering United States?

Socialism has not been implemented except in the establishment of deformed one party systems. Socialism must be democratic. Even those systems, however, have been improvements over capitalism. For example, women's rights jumped by leaps and bounds with the Chinese, Russian, and Cuban revolutions. The Russian Revolution put an end to the First World War and the USSR smashed Nazi Germany as well. Blacks that had been segregated like in the Jim Crow American south in Cuba gained equal rights with the 1959 revolution. The socialist economies of these countries also greatly improved the standard of living of the majority of people. In addition the Cuban people, unlike many of us, have healthcare as a result of socialism. "

Malvado sighs, "Again with the dualities. Anti-you has to be pro-them? Did I ever say Capitalism "worked" in any sense? No. It's arguably repsonsible for more bloodshed than the "big" religons combined, I think. And you said no Socialist government has ever been truly socialist, in the democratic sense. My point is you are crying socialism in the modern day hub of capitalism, in the place the MOST prejudiced against the very TERM. You are also advocating violent resistance of and insurrection. (A)Not yet required (in my opinion) (B) Not asked for by the majority of people in America, especially not with "Socialist" stamped on it. I'm saying success will only come from abandoning the duality of left vs right, and creating something new from outside the box that the majority can agree on. Socialism is old school. Maybe you can take certain precepts from it and work to better America by finding practical ways to incoprorate them, and transform things, but to label anything "socialist" in America is to be written off by the majority. Thus I think it's not worth advocating for as a goal."
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  • Unsu...
     
    For people interested, Maldavo’s criticisms are in reference to my article:
    Pro-War Democrats Battle for the Presidency
    allactivists.tribe.net/thread...15e24f4

    I repost a further earlier response to Malvado on socialism because I think it answers part of this:

    Steven Argue said, “End U.S. imperialism through socialist revolution!”

    Malvado says, “See above. Steven, wake up. This is America. These ideas are simply not viable here and you are living in a dreamland if think they have chance one of working. If they didn't catch on in the 60s what chance do they have now?”

    Steven Argue responds, “These ideas did catch on in the 1960’s. It was the socialist movement that organized the anti-war movement. That movement, immediately after the Kent State shootings in May 1970 had 8 million students on strike, and some Universities, such a Berkley, were taken over by students and faculty as anti-war universities. After May 1970 the majority of those drafted were already opposed to the war before they got to Vietnam. This brought an end to the war.

    “This anti-war movement, organized by socialists, also buoyed the women’s rights movement, the gay liberation movement, and the environmental movement. Without those mass movements we have all been loosing ground ever since.

    “While socialists did not succeed in producing a socialist revolution we did succeed in pushing some major components of our program forward. The only reason we did not succeed in producing a revolution was that the working class was bought off in this country at that time, and in its majority did not join the rebellion of the students and soldiers. The working class has taken a big beating by the capitalists since and is much more likely to join the struggle on a massive scale. That is part of why socialist revolution is more possible with the coming and growing struggles than it was in the early 1970’s.


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  • Steven advocating violent insurrection to save us all........

    I'm sure all those peasants Che murdered were happy for the help

    Advocating violence to implement socialism (even if pure) makes you for lack of a better term a "jack booted thug wannabe"
    • Unsu...
       
      And Glen the troll strikes again. On another site he was blaming "progressives" for homelessness and public urination. In reality it is capitalism that causes homelessness.

      Here Glen makes the absurd statement, "I'm sure all those peasants Che murdered were happy for the help."

      Che never murdered any peasants, but he did save a lot of their lives. He started out as a doctor traveling throughout Latin America, giving medical care to the poor.

      Che Guevara was in Guatemala as a doctor in 1954 when the CIA overthrew the Democratically elected Arbenz government. That government was seen as a threat to the profits of the Rockefeller family's United Fruit Company because Arbenz advocated land reform. So U.S. imperialism overthrew Arbenz and put a long series of military dictatorships in power that tortured and murdered hundreds of thousands of peasants and kept the people in extreme poverty. At the time of the CIA intervention in Guatemala, Che advocated that Arbenz should arm the people to resist, but Arbenz was not a revolutionary socialist and refusing to arm the people was his downfall.

      Later Che was in Mexico when he met a dissident in exile, exiled by the U.S. backed Batista dictatorship in Cuba. The name of that young dissident was Fidel Castro. The Batista dictatorship had murdered tens of thousands of people, many of them student activists.

      Castro and Che and a number of other Cuban revolutionaries set out in a boat called the Granma from Mexico for Cuba, armed and ready to lead the insurrection against Batista. The day they were set to arrive a general strike was called in Cuba, but the Granma got caught in stormy waters and arrived three days late. When they arrived Batista knew they were coming and most were killed. Che, Fidel, and a few others managed to escape and make their way into the rural Cuban mountains. There the peasants fed them and they began to build the revolutionary army that overthrew Batista in 1959.

      Upon taking power the Cuban revolution, as in any true revolution, liquidated the old power structure. A new revolutionary government was built and the murderers and torturers of the Batista government were put on trial. Eight hundred were executed for their crimes.

      Before the Cuban Revolution, Rockefeller’s United Fruit Company owned much of the land. Peasants starved in the off-season and lacked medical care and access to education. When the Cuban revolution came to power in 1959, Fidel Castro’s promise of land reform was quickly carried out. This made Cuba an enemy of the United States government, and the Cubans have never been forgiven since. Later a broader socialist revolution in the economy was carried out.

      In addition to land reform the Cuban revolution has provided free access to good healthcare, education for kids even in the most remote rural areas, free education through the university levels, an elimination of hunger, an end to legal discrimination and segregation that existed against Blacks, women’s rights including birth control and free abortion on demand, environmental policies that the World Wildlife Fund says are the only passing policies on global warming in the world, and a promotion of culture.

      For the vast majority of the Cuban people today their lives are much-much better than they were under the Batista government. They are a highly educated people doing much better. For a small minority, the wealthy, that profited from the misery of capitalism, their lives got worse. Most of them are now living in Miami. In Cuba, the Cuban people still come out in their millions at rallies in support of the revolution and socialism.

      Che didn’t kill peasants, he doctored them, and when he decided that wasn’t enough, he fought along side them to better their conditions.

      After helping lead the Cuban Revolution, Che was caught and murdered by CIA and Green Beret trained, equipped, and led Bolivian soldiers in 1967.

      Yet the model of Che’s revolutionary self-sacrifice and dedication continues to live on and inspire new generations of socialist revolutionaries. Likewise, Che’s dedication to socialism, including providing medical care to the poor, lives on with the Cuban revolution.

      It is interesting that tiny poor Cuba under a U.S. economic blockade is able to provide good healthcare for everyone. Cuba, unlike the United States, does not let people die in the emergency rooms without treatment or turn sick people away from receiving healthcare because they lack insurance. Cuba has taken the profit out of illness and injury and provide healthcare as a human right.

      Likewise, while the United States is sending military troops to set up death squad governments in Iraq and Haiti and to intervene in Afghanistan, the Phillipines, and prop up the death squad government of Colombia, Cuba instead sends doctors. Cuban doctors save lives. They are on the ground in a number of countries providing regular care, and they are also sent to countries in emergencies. A few years back Cuba sent doctors to Central America after a bad hurricane and saved many lives. Likewise they offered to send doctors to New Orleans immediately after Katrina, they were well trained in dealing with that type of situation and would have saved lives, but Bush refused to let them in. A similar thing happened with the Nicaraguan government refusing entry, but that government let the Cuban doctors in due to protests.

      While I have important arguments with the Cuban government in saying that revolutionary socialism must be democratic, it would be the height of socialist sectarianism not to recognize the significant gains that have been made through the Cuban revolution.

      U.S. Hands Off Cuba!

      End the Economic Blockade!

      For The Right of US Citizens to Travel To Cuba!

      U.S. Out Of Guantanamo!

      For National Healthcare in The United States!

      End US Imperialism Through Socialist Revolution!
      • I was going to say in a much abbreviated statement of what you said, Steve, that the US killed thousands of peasants, and since World War II caused millions of deaths by way of US puppet regimes.
        • Unsu...
           
          Thanks Tedster. I would add that the U.S. has killed millions of peasants directly as well since the end of World War 2 with the wars in Korea and Vietnam. In addition, the U.S. has been killing peasants in other countries ever since the Spanish American War made the US the imperialist rulers of former Spanish colonies. One famous example was the repeated US invasions of Nicaragua by US marines that fought Sandino and set up the murderous Samoza dictatorship and dynasty.

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